Post by mwilson on Mar 22, 2011 23:30:07 GMT -5
Having gone through every problem that's stated below, I wish I would have seen this before I dove in to this mess. I did a search on this website before I posted this and nothing on this subject came up came up.
BOTTOMLINE: Let the buyer beware!!
Originally posted on The Samba.com in 2005!
My son showed up this weekend with an Empi wide five front and rear disc brake conversion kit for his 74 standard. Since there seems to be a lot of topics on disc brake conversions and on Empi quality I thought I'd share my experience with this kit.
The quality of the calipers and rotors is likely as good as any others available. One of the rotors had apparently been dropped and dinged up and should've been scrapped. Naturally, the worst ding was where the bearing race fits. We were able to clean it up enough to use though but it was a pain and I shouldn't have had to do it.
We had to shim the rear axle quite a bit to get the right torque for the axle nut as the rotor hub is way to short. I suppose the rotors are made for quite a few applications and ours happened to require shimming. We weren't told that might be necessary though and finding shims in a small town on a Saturday was a pregnant dog. They should have been included in the kit.
The pads were okay. The anti rattle clips that were supposed to be in the kit were not. I called the supplier and was told they really weren't necessary anyway. I've never installed disc brakes without them but was forced to this time. I did use some anti-rattle grease I happened to have from Toyota.
The hardware that came with the kit sucked all the way around. The kit included various hex head bolts to hold the calipers onto the hub. We could not find a wrench, metric or standard, that fit two of them. I have no idea what size they are. I have every available size metric and standard allen wrench but none would fit these mystery bolts. Fortunately there were enough extras that we managed to find the required number that would fit.
The front wheel bearings, made in China, were too small to fit the spindle, period. They couldn't have even been pressed on. Just plain to small. They did fit the hubs just not the spindles. We ended up using our old ones which were of much better quality. That's probably a good thing. The OEM bearing cover on the speedometer side was way too big for that rotor. We had to sort of glue it on. The one on the other side was way too small. We had to just about press it on. Swapping them from wheel to wheel didn't help.
The bolts that fasten the rotor brackets to the spindle comes with too large a head which made the rotor hubs rub on the bolts. Can't have that. And, of course, you don't know that until after you've bolted them on using loctite. So, as with the bearings, we used our old bolts. In fact we used most of our old stuff as it seemed to be better made and it least it fit the first time.
The kit also included a dual circuit master cylinder. The instruction sheet advised that we had to replace our old one with the new one. Turns out that was completely unnecessary. The old dual circuit MC would've worked just fine. Since the instructions said to replace it I went ahead and removed the old one.
The problem occurred when I broke one of the plastic supply connections on my old exellent quality MC while removing a rubber hose. So I was forced to use the new one for no good reason. I don't expect it is near as well made as the old one. Plus a great deal of time was wasted fooling with the MC not to mention brake fluid going everywhere.
The rotor brackets fit well but there was no instructions on how to install them other than an admonition not to bend them when you did it. No instructions on which way the brackets should point, etc. All brackets face to the rear of the wheel by the way.
In fact, the single biggest obstacle to this "complete" kit is that there is essentially no instruction on how to install anything or at least they were not in our box. I've repaired and installed a good many disc brake systems and found this deal to be taxing at best.
We got a single sheet that said, in essence, to remove the old ones and install the new ones. There was no mention at all on how to connect the new E-brake cables to the calipers or which caliper went on which wheel. That is, right or left wheel. It makes a big difference as the brakes won't work if the left caliper is on the right wheel, for example. The calipers are not marked right and left so the only way to know is to install them with the bleed screw on top.
Most of our installation was trial and error and a lot of head scratching because of the poor instructions. What could have been a half days job lasted a day and a half.
The instruction sheet adivised to replace the rear brake lines with the new ones included in the kit. What it meant to say was attach the new lines as an extension to the existing metal lines as they need to be longer. A simple job if it had been explained that way. A pain in the ass since it was not.
Overall, the only thing missing from the kit was the anti rattle clips, if they are needed. My feeling is that Empi could drop the price by doing away with the hardware kit altogether and just tell you to reuse your German stuff since you have to anyway.
Everything else was in the kit. I called the supplier's tech line and we worked through some of the problems I couldn't solve. On some I just had to wing it.
Once installed and bled though the brakes work great and I don't forsee any problems. The whole thing was just a pain in the butt when it didn't have to be.
I've noticed that a few suppliers are selling this kit and they're really no cheaper than any other. Over all I wouldn't recommend it because of the cheesy hardware and the lack of installation instructions. After you've installed the kit once though, or if you're an expert, I expect installation of the next is swift. I just don't know if this kit is designed for someone with limited experience. They should tell you that though. No matter what, make sure you hold on to your old hardware.
Sorry for the length of this post but I'm thinking it might help some other newbie looking at these kits.
I hope this helps,
Matt
BOTTOMLINE: Let the buyer beware!!
Originally posted on The Samba.com in 2005!
My son showed up this weekend with an Empi wide five front and rear disc brake conversion kit for his 74 standard. Since there seems to be a lot of topics on disc brake conversions and on Empi quality I thought I'd share my experience with this kit.
The quality of the calipers and rotors is likely as good as any others available. One of the rotors had apparently been dropped and dinged up and should've been scrapped. Naturally, the worst ding was where the bearing race fits. We were able to clean it up enough to use though but it was a pain and I shouldn't have had to do it.
We had to shim the rear axle quite a bit to get the right torque for the axle nut as the rotor hub is way to short. I suppose the rotors are made for quite a few applications and ours happened to require shimming. We weren't told that might be necessary though and finding shims in a small town on a Saturday was a pregnant dog. They should have been included in the kit.
The pads were okay. The anti rattle clips that were supposed to be in the kit were not. I called the supplier and was told they really weren't necessary anyway. I've never installed disc brakes without them but was forced to this time. I did use some anti-rattle grease I happened to have from Toyota.
The hardware that came with the kit sucked all the way around. The kit included various hex head bolts to hold the calipers onto the hub. We could not find a wrench, metric or standard, that fit two of them. I have no idea what size they are. I have every available size metric and standard allen wrench but none would fit these mystery bolts. Fortunately there were enough extras that we managed to find the required number that would fit.
The front wheel bearings, made in China, were too small to fit the spindle, period. They couldn't have even been pressed on. Just plain to small. They did fit the hubs just not the spindles. We ended up using our old ones which were of much better quality. That's probably a good thing. The OEM bearing cover on the speedometer side was way too big for that rotor. We had to sort of glue it on. The one on the other side was way too small. We had to just about press it on. Swapping them from wheel to wheel didn't help.
The bolts that fasten the rotor brackets to the spindle comes with too large a head which made the rotor hubs rub on the bolts. Can't have that. And, of course, you don't know that until after you've bolted them on using loctite. So, as with the bearings, we used our old bolts. In fact we used most of our old stuff as it seemed to be better made and it least it fit the first time.
The kit also included a dual circuit master cylinder. The instruction sheet advised that we had to replace our old one with the new one. Turns out that was completely unnecessary. The old dual circuit MC would've worked just fine. Since the instructions said to replace it I went ahead and removed the old one.
The problem occurred when I broke one of the plastic supply connections on my old exellent quality MC while removing a rubber hose. So I was forced to use the new one for no good reason. I don't expect it is near as well made as the old one. Plus a great deal of time was wasted fooling with the MC not to mention brake fluid going everywhere.
The rotor brackets fit well but there was no instructions on how to install them other than an admonition not to bend them when you did it. No instructions on which way the brackets should point, etc. All brackets face to the rear of the wheel by the way.
In fact, the single biggest obstacle to this "complete" kit is that there is essentially no instruction on how to install anything or at least they were not in our box. I've repaired and installed a good many disc brake systems and found this deal to be taxing at best.
We got a single sheet that said, in essence, to remove the old ones and install the new ones. There was no mention at all on how to connect the new E-brake cables to the calipers or which caliper went on which wheel. That is, right or left wheel. It makes a big difference as the brakes won't work if the left caliper is on the right wheel, for example. The calipers are not marked right and left so the only way to know is to install them with the bleed screw on top.
Most of our installation was trial and error and a lot of head scratching because of the poor instructions. What could have been a half days job lasted a day and a half.
The instruction sheet adivised to replace the rear brake lines with the new ones included in the kit. What it meant to say was attach the new lines as an extension to the existing metal lines as they need to be longer. A simple job if it had been explained that way. A pain in the ass since it was not.
Overall, the only thing missing from the kit was the anti rattle clips, if they are needed. My feeling is that Empi could drop the price by doing away with the hardware kit altogether and just tell you to reuse your German stuff since you have to anyway.
Everything else was in the kit. I called the supplier's tech line and we worked through some of the problems I couldn't solve. On some I just had to wing it.
Once installed and bled though the brakes work great and I don't forsee any problems. The whole thing was just a pain in the butt when it didn't have to be.
I've noticed that a few suppliers are selling this kit and they're really no cheaper than any other. Over all I wouldn't recommend it because of the cheesy hardware and the lack of installation instructions. After you've installed the kit once though, or if you're an expert, I expect installation of the next is swift. I just don't know if this kit is designed for someone with limited experience. They should tell you that though. No matter what, make sure you hold on to your old hardware.
Sorry for the length of this post but I'm thinking it might help some other newbie looking at these kits.
I hope this helps,
Matt
