|
|
Post by gitrdun on Sept 6, 2011 17:44:11 GMT -5
Now that the weather has finally cooled below killer heat levels i am getting back to work on my GT-1.
I have a 1600cc VW motor that suposedly was pulled from a running bug, no idea what year the motor is. I installed it in the car and then hooked up the battery but it wont roll the motor over. I can hear the solenoid make a solid click like its pushing the gear out but thats all it does. My battery drops from 12.6V to 11.5V when i hold the key on start. I touched the battery cable directly to the starter solenoid to make sure it wasnt bad wireing, same thing.
So im wondering if i have the wrong starter on the wrong flywheel ring. I know these VW motors have at least two different flywheels and different starters to match. But the flywheel fit into the tranny perfect, if it was the wrong one it wouldnt even fit at all. But is it possible i have the wrong starter? If so how can i tell the difference?
|
|
|
|
Post by savedbygrace on Sept 6, 2011 20:10:55 GMT -5
VW used many different starters over the years, but all can be put into 3 different classes. 6volt, 12 volt manual trans, and 12volt Autostick. 6volt starters have a different tooth count on both the flywheel and the starter than the 12volt units. The 12volt manual trans starters require a bushing in the trans to support the starter shaft. Autosticks are a self supporting starter that do not require a bushing in the transmission. With all of that being said I would first check the starter you are using to be sure it is 12volt. It will be stamped on the housing of the starter. Next I would make sure that the bronze bushing is in the bellhousing. If you have the starter out you can see the bushing pressed into the hole just above the flywheel teeth. It is not possible to have a standard 12volt starter bench tested because it will not spin without the shaft being supported. Autostick starters are the best factory units due to the fact that they will work on a transaxle with a hammered out bushing, and they are a high torq starter. Work great for mild preformance engines, and great for starting "hot" engines during the summer months. I have had the same problem with starters that you are, and all have been tracked down to a bad starter, or a worn bronze bushing in the trans.
|
|
|
|
Post by jspbtown on Sept 6, 2011 21:14:59 GMT -5
Definitely go autostick. Very cheap at your local Advanced Auto Parts store.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeff Lande on Sept 7, 2011 5:19:48 GMT -5
dumb question, but does the engine turn over with a ratchet or wrench attached to the bolt on the crank pulley? Maybe it is engaging, but the engine is seized?
|
|
|
|
Post by centralvalleygter on Sept 7, 2011 10:30:27 GMT -5
My thought exactly jslande01. Make sure the engine will turn over (with wrench or pushing the car and letting out the while in gear).
Warmest,
|
|
|
|
Post by gitrdun on Sept 7, 2011 18:37:18 GMT -5
I did turn the motor over by hand to make sure the flywheel wasnt jammed up. It took alot of effort using a 16" breakover bar with a socket on the crank pulley. Wasnt sure how much effort it should take but i could feel the compression.
Ill pull the starter and check to make sure its a 12V and not a 6V. If all fails ill just pick up an auto tranny starter as suggested.
Thanks for the info.
|
|
|
|
Post by gitrdun on Sept 7, 2011 19:40:23 GMT -5
Ok so i checked and its def a 12V starter, that was one of those DUH moments. I pulled it out and put the juice to it and it kinda sorta turned a few revolutions but didnt just spool right up. There was a bronze bushing in the bell housing. Ill borrow a known good starter and try it or just pick up a new one.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeff Lande on Sept 7, 2011 20:27:27 GMT -5
I actually had a similar problem... starter sat for 20 years and it disintegrated from the inside. Hit the battery and all I got was a big spark. Replaced the starter (Advance Auto Parts) and we're good to go.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan MacMillan on Sept 8, 2011 23:40:08 GMT -5
I did turn the motor over by hand to make sure the flywheel wasnt jammed up. It took alot of effort using a 16" breakover bar with a socket on the crank pulley. Wasnt sure how much effort it should take but i could feel the compression. Ill pull the starter and check to make sure its a 12V and not a 6V. If all fails ill just pick up an auto tranny starter as suggested. Thanks for the info. This is not good. With a bar that size it should be easy to turn. By the sounds of it you may have a 12v flywheel in a 6v trans that is not properly clearanced. Back off the engine mounting bolts and pull the engine out about 3/4" then try turning it with the bar. As stated earlier, a non autostick starter CANNOT be tested out of the car, unless you bolt it to a trans housing. Your starter may still be OK. |
|
|
|
Post by savedbygrace on Sept 9, 2011 14:59:08 GMT -5
Good thinking Dan. I never thought about the 6v trans with the 12v flywheel. I take for granted that everyone knows this stuff. I need to start thinking "basic" more often.  |
|
|
|
Post by gitrdun on Sept 11, 2011 20:59:29 GMT -5
Checked clearance and the flwheel isnt rubbing in the bell housing. I pulled the motor out and turned it over by hand and it wasnt any easier to roll over. Picked up a new starter and it will now roll the motor over but only about half a revolution at a time. When it hits the compression stroke it cant push through it. I have a feeling this motor just sat to long and is a little stiff. Im tempted to spray some lube down the spark plug holes to lubricate the cylinders and rings and see if it frees up enough to roll over easy.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jeff Lande on Sept 12, 2011 6:46:28 GMT -5
how long has the motor been sitting? Are you sure its compression and not a rusty cylinder? pull the plugs out and see if it spins, if it runs into resistance, you probably need to replace a jug. Mine sat for 20 yrs, apparently one valve was open and the humidity that got in rusted one, but the rest were fine.
|
|
|
|
Post by gitrdun on Sept 12, 2011 16:32:14 GMT -5
Hadnt thought of rotating it with the plugs out, ill do that. No idea how long its been sitting but i was under the impression it should bolt in and fire right up according to the guy i got it from.
|
|
|
|
Post by gitrdun on Sept 27, 2011 21:15:35 GMT -5
So ive done some more tinkering on the motor. I removed the alternator belt as it seemed to be very tight and the motor spins over much easier than it did. The starter still doesnt seem to have the oomph that i think it should. Its a brand new starter. Maybe the starters on these motors are just weak by nature, i dont know. The carb seems to work, it will squirt out the accelerator pump jets, tried some starting fluid to. I pulled the plugs and checked for spark and it does have spark. I think it just isnt spinning fast enough to fire up.
Are these starters usually under powered?
|
|
|
|
Post by smyrnaguy on Sept 28, 2011 16:35:36 GMT -5
Are you certain you have a good power source? Have you cleaned all the connections and checked the battery clamps? Load tested the battery? Usually these starters have no problem spinning the engine as compression is about 8:1 or less. Have you tried to spin the motor with no plugs? Are the cylinder walls coated with rust? Are the valves properly adjusted? If the timing is way off it will turn slow. My .02.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan MacMillan on Sept 28, 2011 18:54:17 GMT -5
Even with the plugs in and the belt on you should be able to roll it over with your bare hands. The compression strokes will be a little difficult but certainly possible. Using a wrench you should have no problems turning it over.
|
|
|
|
Post by gitrdun on Oct 1, 2011 21:58:02 GMT -5
Mystery of the stuck motor solved. I removed one shim from behind the flywheel and it freed it up a bit. I think somebody must have put an extra shim in for good measure. Got it fired up and running.
By the way what is the tolerence for crankshaft end play on these motors? I couldnt feel any play at all even after removing one shim.
|
|
|
|
Post by thehag71 on Oct 2, 2011 0:34:05 GMT -5
Crankshaft end play depends on the cc's of the motor. For a 1600, the crankshaft end play should be .0027-.0051 in (.07-.13 mm) NEW with a wear limit of .006in (.15mm). Straight outta the pages of your friendly Clymer shop manual covering vw beetles from 1961-1979. On engines from late 1966 to 1974, you should have 2 shims and possibly 3 plus a rubber seal. page 63-64 from same Clymer manual.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan MacMillan on Oct 2, 2011 7:09:11 GMT -5
|
|
